I wonder if this was really his decision or a state decision. Either way it's pretty damn sad.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=63330&sectionid=3510211

He was to afraid to compete with an Israeli swimmer. What if he lost or had stood by him to receive an reward. Oh the shame

He was to afraid to compete with an Israeli swimmer. What if he lost or had stood by him to receive an reward. Oh the shame

Worse still, what if he had bested the Israeli swimmer, and wound up being shot in the head by an Israeli sniper.

??

Worse still, what if he had bested the Israeli swimmer, and wound up being shot in the head by an Israeli sniper.

??

Pretty sure the Iranians would be killing the Israeli before the Israelis killed the Iranian.

Either way, it is sad.

Worse still, what if he had bested the Israeli swimmer, and wound up being shot in the head by an Israeli sniper.

You are so predictable.

Pretty sure the Iranians would be killing the Israeli before the Israelis killed the Iranian.


Not if the past 60 years (of Israel's genocidal campaign against the 'e-ville' Muslims) is any indicator.

Worse still, what if he had bested the Israeli swimmer, and wound up being shot in the head by an Israeli sniper.

You are so predictable.

No doubt you realize the inherent truth of the supposition then.

As has been demonstrated in Palestine or decades, the Israelis are FAR more likely (to put it mildly) to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.

On that point, you cannot argue, poopsie.

Not if the past 60 years (of Israel's genocidal campaign against the 'e-ville' Muslims) is any indicator.

Or do you mean the past 60 years of the "e-ville" Muslims trying to wipe out the Jews?

Or do you mean the past 60 years of the "e-ville" Muslims trying to wipe out the Jews?
you can't argue with a fool.

Or do you mean the past 60 years of the "e-ville" Muslims trying to wipe out the Jews?

I repeat;

....going by past history, the Israelis are FAR more likely to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.

Period.

It's okay that you cannot refute it.

Just try to change the subject, or make yet other inane **I know you are but what am I!?* comment.

Anything to obfuscate the issue.

:thumbs:

I repeat;

....going by past history, the Israelis are FAR more likely to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.

Period.

It's okay that you cannot refute it.

Just try to change the subject, or make yet other inane **I know you are but what am I!?* comment.

Anything to obfuscate the issue.

:thumbs:

Perhaps in military conflict the Israels are more likely to kill a Muslim. Granted, but that's like saying that the US was far more likely to kill a North Vietnamese soldier during Vietnam. We still lost that war despite advanced technology. The Israelis have far more advanced weaponry and tactics. Supplied by the US I know, so don't waste your time.

Let me ask you this though, who is more likely to wear a bomb into a pizza parlor and blow themselves and a bunch of innocent teenagers up? Who's more likely to put a bomb in a nightclub and kill dozens of innocent party goers? Who's more likely to blow themselves up along with a bus full of people going to work, school, or church? I'll give you a hint, it's not the Israelis. You think they would give a crap if they lost a medal in the Olympics? No. I could bring up Munich too, I'm sure you know all about that. On the other hand damn near the entirety of the Muslim community get's up in arms about a cartoon drawn about their god? They get offended at the slightest mockery of Allah? To the point of killing people over it?

And for the record, I didn't change the subject at all. Don't give me your "oh you use your he said she said semantics because you cant argue the point" BS. You do it all the time when you mention Bush and the right wing evil doers.

Let me ask you this though, who is more likely to wear a bomb into a pizza parlor and blow themselves and a bunch of innocent teenagers up? Who's more likely to put a bomb in a nightclub and kill dozens of innocent party goers? Who's more likely to blow themselves up along with a bus full of people going to work, school, or church?

You are extremely narrow-minded. In terms of the Israel-Palestinian Conflict, you have no idea what you are talking about. You repeat what you see and that’s all the information you have about the conflict. Before I go through the rest of your post, I want to point out to you that not all Palestinians are Muslims. There is a significant amount of Palestinian Christians. So please don’t confuse the two. Or try making it as if all Palestinians are Muslims.

I’m assuming the actions in your post relate to what Palestinian Muslims have done to Israelis. Instead of asking who does this, you should really ask why these people do these things. Why do they commit these horrible actions? If you looked at the Conflict with an impartial stance without any prejudices, you would truly understand why these people do the things they do; why a man would go into a pizza parlor and end his life and try to end the lives of those around him. I’m am in no way saying that the actions this man take and the others that take the same action are justified in any way. But I can understand why some might take that action. And all it really takes to understand this action is to understand what this man is going through. In the Occupied Territories, what usually takes fifteen minutes anywhere may take up to an hour, even more because of roadblocks and checkpoints. Would you even care to imagine what life is like to be a Palestinian? “Since the beginning of the Al Aqsa Intifada on September 28 2000 until July 2006, 68 pregnant women had to give birth at checkpoints, and that 34 infants and 4 pregnant women died on these checkpoints.”

http://imemc.org/article/47767



I'll give you a hint, it's not the Israelis.

It may not be the Israelis in you predicaments, but Israelis commit appalling actions just the same as Palestinians.

You think they would give a crap if they lost a medal in the Olympics? No. I could bring up Munich too, I'm sure you know all about that. On the other hand damn near the entirety of the Muslim community get's up in arms about a cartoon drawn about their god? They get offended at the slightest mockery of Allah? To the point of killing people over it?


You can bring up all the actions committed by Muslims in the whole world. It will amount to what Israelis do to Palestinians. The entirety of the Muslim community is 1.3 billion people. Not even a quarter of the 1.3 billion people that make up the Muslim community made a fuss about the cartoons in the way you portray. Your statements are ridiculous and laughable at best.

Perhaps in military conflict the Israels are more likely to kill a Muslim.

Yes. In such decades long "military conflicts" as the one where the Israeli's are illegally occupying another country and carrying out a campaign of genocide against the Palestinian people.

Who's more likely to blow themselves up along with a bus full of people going to work, school, or church?

The Palestinians. Suicide attacks and guerrilla warfare is what they are reduced to doing in order to make some sort of armed response to the murderous and overwhelming superiority of force that they are being forced to suffer every day of their lives. It's like watching a cripple with a stick trying to fend off a powerful serial killer armed with a machine gun.

Before I go through the rest of your post, I want to point out to you that not all Palestinians are Muslims. There is a significant amount of Palestinian Christians. So please don’t confuse the two. Or try making it as if all Palestinians are Muslims.


Yes, I know this. However I was talking in large part about the Iranians as well, because that originally who this was about, and therefore about Muslims. The Palestinians that are Muslims fall into that category as well.


I’m assuming the actions in your post relate to what Palestinian Muslims have done to Israelis. Instead of asking who does this, you should really ask why these people do these things. Why do they commit these horrible actions? If you looked at the Conflict with an impartial stance without any prejudices, you would truly understand why these people do the things they do; why a man would go into a pizza parlor and end his life and try to end the lives of those around him. I’m am in no way saying that the actions this man take and the others that take the same action are justified in any way. But I can understand why some might take that action. And all it really takes to understand this action is to understand what this man is going through. In the Occupied Territories, what usually takes fifteen minutes anywhere may take up to an hour, even more because of roadblocks and checkpoints. Would you even care to imagine what life is like to be a Palestinian? “Since the beginning of the Al Aqsa Intifada on September 28 2000 until July 2006, 68 pregnant women had to give birth at checkpoints, and that 34 infants and 4 pregnant women died on these checkpoints.”

http://imemc.org/article/47767



Yes, now here I was mostly referring to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It is not just the Palestinians doing it though, is it? I remember Saddam Hussein offering something like $10,000 to the families of suicide bombers. You think Iran and other Arab countries don't fund and help out the Palestinians? None of them even want Israel to exist. They believe that when they not only kill themselves, but many an innocent person, they will go to paradise. Don't you think that's a little bit... well crazy? I think even Freethinker can agree on that fact. However on a non-religious level, what good does it do? None. They don't get any closer to bringing down Israel when they do these things. They just seem to want to take the easy way out. The middle east is a giant debacle, for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. It's been that way for a couple thousand years now, over what? Religion. That's for another topic though.


It may not be the Israelis in you predicaments, but Israelis commit appalling actions just the same as Palestinians.


I agree. However, they don't wake up in the morning and say hey, let's go see how many innocent Palestinian people we can kill today. If that were the case, Palestine wouldn't be there anymore.


You can bring up all the actions committed by Muslims in the whole world. It will amount to what Israelis do to Palestinians. The entirety of the Muslim community is 1.3 billion people. Not even a quarter of the 1.3 billion people that make up the Muslim community made a fuss about the cartoons in the way you portray. Your statements are ridiculous and laughable at best.


Ok, my choice of words was bad. So let's say not even a quarter of 1.3 billion people. Let's say, 10% even. We will call those the Muslim extremists. Which is what I should have said in the first place. That's 100,300,000 people. 100,300,000 people who would cut your head if you even misspoke about their god. People who want to kill you because you are not a Muslim. How many Jews are there in Israel? 5 million or somewhere around there? I wonder if it ever crossed their minds that hey, maybe if we stop bombing them, they wont have to come over here and bulldoze our homes. And maybe possibly, we can live in peace. What a concept.

EDIT = Fixed the quotes.

Yes, now here I was mostly referring to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It is not just the Palestinians doing it though, is it? I remember Saddam Hussein offering something like $10,000 to the families of suicide bombers. You think Iran and other Arab countries don't fund and help out the Palestinians? None of them even want Israel to exist. They believe that when they not only kill themselves, but many an innocent person, they will go to paradise. Don't you think that's a little bit... well crazy? I think even Freethinker can agree on that fact. However on a non-religious level, what good does it do? None. They don't get any closer to bringing down Israel when they do these things. They just seem to want to take the easy way out. The middle east is a giant debacle, for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. It's been that way for a couple thousand years now, over what? Religion. That's for another topic though.

I never implied that Palestinians do not get monetary support from their neighbors. But Israel receives are far more greater amount of monetary support than their Palestinians. Any real person that understands and in truth cares about injustice towards a people will at least see the wrong Israel has committed as a country. And I do not think that’s crazy at all. On a non-religious level, they are attacking their occupier, who has desecrated their homes and lives. I agree that the Middle East is in great turmoil right now, but it has nothing to do with religion.

I agree. However, they don't wake up in the morning and say hey, let's go see how many innocent Palestinian people we can kill today. If that were the case, Palestine wouldn't be there anymore.

They do that and so much more. Their checkpoints and roadblocks keep children from going to school, Palestinians from going to work and Palestinians away from decent medical treatment. They bulldoze their homes and olive groves. They imprison many innocent Palestinians. And as a matter of fact, they do kill Palestinians. It is extremely difficult living as a Palestinian. Israel controls their borders, air space, and ports.

Ok, my choice of words was bad. So let's say not even a quarter of 1.3 billion people. Let's say, 10% even. We will call those the Muslim extremists. Which is what I should have said in the first place. That's 100,300,000 people. 100,300,000 people who would cut your head if you even misspoke about their god. People who want to kill you because you are not a Muslim. How many Jews are there in Israel? 5 million or somewhere around there? I wonder if it ever crossed their minds that hey, maybe if we stop bombing them, they wont have to come over here and bulldoze our homes. And maybe possibly, we can live in peace. What a concept.

It’s less than ten percent. I was being generous when I said a quarter. The creation of Israel in 1948 displaced 750,000 Palestinian men, women and children. They demolished more than 500 hundred Palestinian villages. And to this date, the Palestinians remain one of the largest refugee populations in the world. I wonder if they ever ask why these people are doing the things they are doing. Palestinians didn’t start blowing themselves up first. Israel is undeniably the aggressor on so many levels. The way the Palestinians are responding is an indication that something is terribly wrong in that part of the Middle East. And the portrait you are trying to paint is nowhere near the indication.

Any real person that understands and in truth cares about injustice towards a people will at least see the wrong Israel has committed as a country. And I do not think that’s crazy at all. On a non-religious level, they are attacking their occupier, who has desecrated their homes and lives. I agree that the Middle East is in great turmoil right now, but it has nothing to do with religion.


I do care and I know Isreal is not perfect, and nor is the United States, or anyone that is human for that matter. It's not a one way street though. Palestinians attack their attackers, Israelis attack their attackers. Every country that surrounds Israel does not want them to be there, except maybe Jordan. And when you say it has nothing to do with religion, I disagree 110%. It has everything to do with religion. Muslims don't like the Jews and Jews don't like the Muslims. If the Jews were Muslims or vice versa, there would be no problem. Jerusalem is a holy city in all three of the major religions, and they have all been fighting over it since the Crusades, and still they fight over it to this day. The Palestinians want to make Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state, after they have vanqished the Israelis of course though.


They do that and so much more. Their checkpoints and roadblocks keep children from going to school, Palestinians from going to work and Palestinians away from decent medical treatment. They bulldoze their homes and olive groves. They imprison many innocent Palestinians. And as a matter of fact, they do kill Palestinians. It is extremely difficult living as a Palestinian. Israel controls their borders, air space, and ports.


Why do they have to do all of that?


It’s less than ten percent. I was being generous when I said a quarter. The creation of Israel in 1948 displaced 750,000 Palestinian men, women and children. They demolished more than 500 hundred Palestinian villages. And to this date, the Palestinians remain one of the largest refugee populations in the world. I wonder if they ever ask why these people are doing the things they are doing. Palestinians didn’t start blowing themselves up first. Israel is undeniably the aggressor on so many levels. The way the Palestinians are responding is an indication that something is terribly wrong in that part of the Middle East. And the portrait you are trying to paint is nowhere near the indication.

Ok, 3 percent, 30 million+ people? That is still a lot.

Many centuries ago the tables were turned in that region, and up until the end of WWII the Jews were the ones being persecuted. In region that they settled first, and all across Europe for that matter. The UN attempted to broker a deal with both the Arabs and Jews, but the Arabs rejected the plans. Israel declared it's independence. Was it wrong of them to declare a themselves a state? I don't think it was. The Israeli state was originaly much smaller. However after all the subsequent wars, the Israelis gained territorry. And here we are today. Israel didnt start any wars. The Arabs dug their own hole because they didn't want to share that land. How many treaties have been broken in that region, including the last one, by the Arabs? The biggest problem is that neither side will relenquish. The same crap will probably go on for another 2000 years there.

I repeat;

....going by past history, the Israelis are FAR more likely to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.
ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR FUCKING MIND!?!? Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book some time. Specifically, look into the 1948 War of Independence, the 1956 Sinai War, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kippur War; IOW, ALL of the major conflicts throughout their history, and you'll see that EVERY TIME Israel defended itself and won.

After each war, the Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured, and that's truly amazing. Why is it amazing, you ask? Because after being the ones who were attacked FIRST, it's unprecedented in world history, that's why. In short, I believe their actions demonstrate their willingness to negotiate with those barbarians even when it requires that they fight for their very existence. They're the ones who've been attacked every time (BY MUSLIMS) from the very territory they surrender, and they always have been.

Doesn't that mean anything to you??? Have you no barometer for fairness or justice?

Quite frankly, I'm amazed Israel hasn't taken a blowtorch to the entire region.

ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR FUCKING MIND!?!? Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book some time. Specifically, look into the 1948 War of Independence, the 1956 Sinai War, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kippur War; IOW, ALL of the major conflicts throughout their history, and you'll see that EVERY TIME Israel defended itself and won.

After each war, the Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured, and that's truly amazing. Why is it amazing, you ask? Because after being the ones who were attacked FIRST, it's unprecedented in world history, that's why. In short, I believe their actions demonstrate their willingness to negotiate with those barbarians even when it requires that they fight for their very existence. They're the ones who've been attacked every time (BY MUSLIMS) from the very territory they surrender, and they always have been.

Doesn't that mean anything to you??? Have you no barometer for fairness or justice?

Quite frankly, I'm amazed Israel hasn't taken a blowtorch to the entire region.

I agree with what you say. But why do you say "by muslims". Would it be right for Iraqis to say now that "we were invaded by Christians".?

ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR FUCKING MIND!?!? Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book some time. Specifically, look into the 1948 War of Independence, the 1956 Sinai War, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kippur War; IOW, ALL of the major conflicts throughout their history, and you'll see that EVERY TIME Israel defended itself and won.This is not quite accurate.

Israel struck first in the Six Day War.

This is not quite accurate.

Israel struck first in the Six Day War.
you can say that they shot first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War), but you can't say that it wasn't really preemptive.

you can say that they shot first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War), but you can't say that it wasn't really preemptive.I can say it was preemptive because that's exactly what it was.

Whether it was justified or not is entirely a separate question.

I can say it was preemptive because that's exactly what it was.

Whether it was justified or not is entirely a separate question.
zomg!!!1! we're on the same page!

Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book some time. Specifically, look into the 1948 War of Independence, the 1956 Sinai War, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kippur War; IOW, ALL of the major conflicts throughout their history, and you'll see that EVERY TIME Israel defended itself and won.

The fact still remains that going by past history, the Israelis are FAR more likely to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.

They're the ones who've been attacked every time (BY MUSLIMS) from the very territory they surrender, and they always have been.

Now I'd like to suggest that you do yourself a favor and pick up a history book.

Doesn't that mean anything to you??? Have you no barometer for fairness or justice?

Here ---

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths.gif


---is what my fucking barometer for fairness and justice reads, pal.

________________________

""You can argue over the terminology (of genocide), but the truth is evident everywhere on the ground where Israel has extended its writ: Palestinians are unworthy, inferior to Jews, and in the name of the Jewish people, Israel has given itself the right to erase the Palestinian presence in Palestine – in other words, to commit genocide by destroying "in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group."

The fact still remains that going by past history, the Israelis are FAR more likely to take the life of a Muslim than for a Muslim to take the life of an Israeli.
No, not "more likely" - try better able. What about that concept don't you get? I'll give you more on why there's a disparity later...
Here ---

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths.gif


---is what my fucking barometer for fairness and justice reads, pal.
This is such a simpleminded way to look at the situation. The "fatality scorecard", which is commonly included in the coverage this conflict gets, almost always paints an oversimplified and deceptive picture of a complex reality. A more thorough analysis of the conflict's incidents and casualties reveals a different story. Did it ever occur to you that Palestinians kill their own at an alarming rate? IOW, indiscriminately bombing Israeli establishments that operate in "occupied" territory will no doubt have an effect on the number of Palestinians killed. On that note, guess which group frequents those establishments, and, if you're at all capable of being honest, guess which group doesn't give a shit about who dies?
""You can argue over the terminology (of genocide), but the truth is evident everywhere on the ground where Israel has extended its writ: Palestinians are unworthy, inferior to Jews, and in the name of the Jewish people, Israel has given itself the right to erase the Palestinian presence in Palestine – in other words, to commit genocide by destroying "in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group."
What utter bullshit. There are more Palestinians living in Israel than there are Israelis living in Palestine. That should tell you something right there. That said, what kind of declaration do you expect these people to make when they've been denied the very right to exist in peace? They've been attacked repeatedly by Muslims who've said, in NO uncertain terms, "Jews are unworthy, inferior to Muslims, and in the name of the ISLAM, we've been given the supreme right to erase their presence from OUR holy land" - and THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE GOOD ON THAT PROMISE SINCE 1948. What's their excuse in your opinion?

No, not "more likely" - try better able.

Hey....use either fucking term you like pal. It still amounts to the same thing.

The "fatality scorecard", which is commonly included in the coverage this conflict gets, almost always paints an oversimplified and deceptive picture of a complex reality.

Riiiiiiiiight.

The poor, poor misunderstood Israeli campaign of genocide. People just don't understaaaaand what the Israelis are trying to do, I guess. :rolleyes:

A more thorough analysis of the conflict's incidents and casualties reveals a different story. Did it ever occur to you that Palestinians kill their own at an alarming rate?

No, it did not.

I am extremely anxious to examine the evidence you have supporting such a claim, though.

(not holding my breath)

.... guess which group doesn't give a shit about who dies?

I'd say it applies a bit to both sides, but far more to the Israelis. They shoot children in the head with high powered rifles, so spare me the bullshit about them "caring" about who dies, mmmmkay??

They (Israelis) have been attacked repeatedly by Muslims who've said, in NO uncertain terms, "Jews are unworthy, inferior to Muslims, and in the name of the ISLAM, we've been given the supreme right to erase their presence from OUR holy land" - and THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE GOOD ON THAT PROMISE SINCE 1948. What's their excuse in your opinion?

No "excuse" involved.

It's their country, and their land. Just because the world's great powers decided (i.e., the Balfour Declaration) to give the Jews someone else's country does not mean the inhabitants of that country should have to accept it.

Palestine was not an empty piece of land sitting there waiting for the Zionists to create their long dreamed of state of Israel. Dispossessing the Palestinians of their lands and attempting to drive them out of their country provoked an inevitable reaction. The Palestinians have been forced into a long and unrelenting resistance against the usurpers and their imperialist supporters (the political and economic leaders) in the U.S., Britain, France.

Hey....use either fucking term you like pal. It still amounts to the same thing.
No it doesn't. One denotes a willingness and no ability, and the other denotes a willingness and the ability to do so. If it were the other way around, Israel wouldn't exist, but in light of your opinion that the "Zionists" in question officially came from nowhere, then I'm guessing you'd be fine with that.
I'd say it applies a bit to both sides, but far more to the Israelis. They shoot children in the head with high powered rifles, so spare me the bullshit about them "caring" about who dies, mmmmkay??
And the other side sets off walking bombs in cafes occupied by their own people. At least, if what you say is true (and I'm somewhat skeptical), the Israelis are targeting people who, at ripe old age of 4, are taught to kill them because they're not Muslims.
No "excuse" involved.

It's their country, and their land. Just because the world's great powers decided (i.e., the Balfour Declaration) to give the Jews someone else's country does not mean the inhabitants of that country should have to accept it.
So where did the Sephardic people come from? Liechtenstein? Don't be an idiot, FT.... :rolleyes:

These aren't Ashkenazi Jews we're talking about.

On that note, you're a science guy - the Jews in question share an astoundingly close genetic resemblance to their Palestinian counterparts, and moreover, those traits are unique to the Middle East and its people. Explain that.
Palestine was not an empty piece of land sitting there waiting for the Zionists to create their long dreamed of state of Israel.
You're damned skippy. As a matter of fact, it wasn't "Palestine" either, it was Canaan.
Dispossessing the Palestinians of their lands and attempting to drive them out of their country provoked an inevitable reaction.
Repeatedly attacking your neighbor (with the support of peaceful Islam behind you) will have a tendency to do that.

Before the Six-Day War, the movement for an independent Palestine received a boost when the Palestine Liberation Organization was established. Its goal, as stated in the Palestinian National Covenant, was to create a Palestinian state in the whole British Mandate, a statement which nullified Israel's right to exist. Along comes 1967, and Israel was attacked by Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Palestine. After being attacked for the third time, they captured the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip from Egypt, and area known as the Golan Heights from Syria to create a 'buffer zone' to defend themselves from future attacks (and considering how disturbing the pattern of random attacks were on their nation, I can hardly blame them).

Originally Posted by Freethinker
Hey....use either fucking term you like pal. It still amounts to the same thing.

No it doesn't. One denotes a willingness and no ability, and the other denotes a willingness and the ability to do so.

Nooooo.....both terms denote both the willingness and the ability.

So use either term you like. They both amount to the same thing.

If it were the other way around, Israel wouldn't exist,....

Possibly.

but in light of your opinion that the "Zionists" in question officially came from nowhere,...

a) I have no idea why you'd place the term Zionists in quotation marks. That is exactly what they are. They even describe themselves that way.

b) I have made no suggestion whatsoever, in any way, that the people in question "came from nowhere".

....then I'm guessing you'd be fine with that.

It really doesn't matter to me; if they'd immediately halt the campaign of genocide. But if they continue it, then yeah, I'd be fine with it.

And the other side sets off walking bombs in cafes occupied by their own people. At least, if what you say is true (and I'm somewhat skeptical), ...

But of cooooooourse you're skeptical. Whenever a Palestinian sets off a bomb and kills himself and two or three saintly, magnificent Israelis, the Media is on it like a pack of wild dogs. It will be trumpeted from every headline and every news program ad infinitum.

When, however, an Israeli marksman shoots a completely unarmed ten year old Palestinain boy, you will not hear a peep out of the same Media talking heads who just screamed about the Israeli deaths.

Here (http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080731195802177) for your edification is a link to the shooting of a ten year old boy by an Israeli. (And I can give you links to several more accounts of other children being shot, although I'd have to comb the foreign news media to find such reports. They are very seldom reported on in the mainstream Media in this country)

Now. Let's see your link where a four year old Palestinian ever harmed a hair on the head of anyone, much less who killed any Israelis.


....you're a science guy - the Jews in question share an astoundingly close genetic resemblance to their Palestinian counterparts, and moreover, those traits are unique to the Middle East and its people. Explain that.

My explanation would be that they both share a semitic identity.

So what? What do you think that has to do with the question of Palestinian/Israeli conflict, as it would pertain to the specific discussion we're having??

Before the Six-Day War, the movement for an independent Palestine received a boost when the Palestine Liberation Organization was established. Its goal, as stated in the Palestinian National Covenant, was to create a Palestinian state in the whole British Mandate, a statement which nullified Israel's right to exist. Along comes 1967, and Israel was attacked by Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Palestine. After being attacked for the third time, they captured the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip from Egypt, and area known as the Golan Heights from Syria

Again, I'd suggest you pick up a history book that was not authored by the Zionists.

"After the discovery of the true facts about Israel's aggression, Israel invoked two arguments to justify its launching the war. Its first argument was that it acted by way of a preventative strike which, in its view, is equivalent to self-defense under Article 51 of the UN Charter. Such argument has no basis in fact or in law. In fact, Israel, as we have seen, created the crisis and attacked its neighbors. In law, the Charter recognizes the right of self-defence against an armed attack, but not a pre-emptive strike in advance of any attack. None of the Arab States had attacked or threatened to attack Israel and as D.P. O'Connell observes, the invasion of a neighboring country's territory is not an exercise of the right of self-defence.________ Henry Cattan, The Palestine Question, p. 106 Pre-emptive strike by Israel:

"Israel attacked preemptively, destroying the Egyptian and Syrian air forces on the ground, and went to win a decisive victory in six days." Dershowitz, Alan M. Preemtion: A Knife That Cuts Both Ways. New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 2006. p. 81.

I do care and I know Isreal is not perfect, and nor is the United States, or anyone that is human for that matter. It's not a one way street though. Palestinians attack their attackers, Israelis attack their attackers. Every country that surrounds Israel does not want them to be there, except maybe Jordan. And when you say it has nothing to do with religion, I disagree 110%. It has everything to do with religion. Muslims don't like the Jews and Jews don't like the Muslims. If the Jews were Muslims or vice versa, there would be no problem. Jerusalem is a holy city in all three of the major religions, and they have all been fighting over it since the Crusades, and still they fight over it to this day. The Palestinians want to make Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state, after they have vanqished the Israelis of course though.

Egypt and Jordan have both declared peace with Israel. Now both countries receive monetary aid from the United States because of this so I don’t think they mind Israel at all. It’s much more complicated than you make it seem. The roots of the conflict begin way before 1948. For a long while, the majority of historic Palestine was Muslim. Christians, Jews and other groups made up about ten percent of the population and in this time all live peacefully. With the rise of the political ideology Zionism and the escalating genocide of Jews in Europe, Jews immigrated in large numbers to Palestine under the false connotation that Palestine was “for a people without a land, and a land without a people.” By 1948, the Jewish population increased to more than 30 percent. However, they only owned about 5 percent of the land. Palestinian consisted of about 60 percent of the population. A year before that, 1947, the UN divided historical Palestine into two parts. 55 percent of the land went to what was supposed to be Israel. Arabs disagreed and fighting broke out. The end result was the displacement of more than 700,000 Palestinians and taking over more of partitioned land given to the Palestinians only leaving them with 22 percent of historic Palestine. They want to make east Jerusalem their capital. And the Israelis want all of Jerusalem as their capital after



Why do they have to do all of that?

To expand their settlements in the occupied territories and to drive out Palestinians from their homes.



Ok, 3 percent, 30 million+ people? That is still a lot.

LOL, it’s much lower than that. But that’s for another time.

Many centuries ago the tables were turned in that region, and up until the end of WWII the Jews were the ones being persecuted. In region that they settled first, and all across Europe for that matter. The UN attempted to broker a deal with both the Arabs and Jews, but the Arabs rejected the plans. Israel declared it's independence. Was it wrong of them to declare a themselves a state? I don't think it was. The Israeli state was originaly much smaller. However after all the subsequent wars, the Israelis gained territorry. And here we are today. Israel didnt start any wars. The Arabs dug their own hole because they didn't want to share that land. How many treaties have been broken in that region, including the last one, by the Arabs? The biggest problem is that neither side will relenquish. The same crap will probably go on for another 2000 years there.

“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.”

“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

And as Sedan pointed out, there was the 1967 war. Also the creation of Israel can considered a declaration of war.

http://www.animalchaplains.com/cute_kittens_sleeping.jpg

Also the creation of Israel can considered a declaration of war.
If that's the case, then fine. The Muslims have declared war, not once, but several times on the Jewish people, and they've been handed their asses in every conflict. Maybe they should consider letting it go, lest they wanna be considered the aggressors here (heaven forefend).

If that's the case, then fine. The Muslims have declared war, not once, but several times on the Jewish people, and they've been handed their asses in every conflict. Maybe they should consider letting it go, lest they wanna be considered the aggressors here (heaven forefend).

I’ll be the first to admit that Arab militaries are ridiculously weak and pathetic. But it still does not change that fact that the occupation of the Palestinian populace is criminal on so many levels.

I’m compelled to believe that if it were the Palestinians in the Israeli shoes, you’d still be against the Palestinians. As for me, injustice is injustice, whether an Israeli, Palestinian, or American carries it out.

I’ll be the first to admit that Arab militaries are ridiculously weak and pathetic.

Yep.....exactly as the Israelis would be.......absent this country pumping billions upon billions in money, arms and WMDs into that country.

As for me, injustice is injustice, whether an Israeli, Palestinian, or American carries it out.

Yes, most rational people would agree with that.

But the sad truth is that the reactionary, two digit I.Q. Archie Bunker types that this country is filled to the brim with will never be able to grasp such a concept.

Yep.....exactly as the Israelis would be.......absent this country pumping billions upon billions in money, arms and WMDs into that country.
Absolute nonsense, FT. We've done the same thing in almost every other country in the region.

You don't know shit about what the Israelis are capable of. Some of the best designs for tactical weapons in the last 20 years have come outta Israel. They have a real industry outside of manufacturing weapons, and whether or not you wanna believe that is immaterial. It's a fact. We didn't build it for 'em – they did.

Absolute nonsense, FT. We've done the same thing in almost every other country in the region.

I believe a check of the facts will reveal that we've given Israel quite a few more weapons (not to mention billions more dollars) than we have the Palestinians.

You don't know shit about what the Israelis are capable of.

I know that if they did not have Big Brother USA backing them up they'd likely have been eliminated long ago.

Some of the best designs for tactical weapons in the last 20 years have come outta Israel.

So fucking what?

Who gave them to the money and the know-how to carry on the research into such weapon designs? The U.S. .

They have a real industry outside of manufacturing weapons

No one is saying differently.

I'm simply pointing out that absent the megatons of weaponry and the billions of dollars and support yearly from the USA, they'd be in the SAME boat as the ""ridiculously weak and pathetic Arab militaries"" that were mentioned.

If that's the case, then fine. The Muslims have declared war, not once, but several times on the Jewish people, and they've been handed their asses in every conflict. Maybe they should consider letting it go, lest they wanna be considered the aggressors here (heaven forefend).
The only reason Muslims have their asses handed to them is because of our support. It has nothing to do with Israel being superior or better than the Muslims militarily, but has more to do with their connection to the worlds super power.

The bottom line is: Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place, but it was. And the only people continuing to defend Israel and their actions are those who put Israel in the Middle East to begin with. If the powers that be were to admit Israel bears more of the blame for conflicts in the Middle East, we would have to admit our decision to put Israel there was wrong. We can't admit that, so we must continue ignoring Israel's human rights violations and constant aggression in order to save face and protect and defend our decision to put Israel in land that belonged to others.

I believe a check of the facts will reveal that we've given Israel quite a few more weapons (not to mention billions more dollars) than we have the Palestinians.
Gee, I wonder why? :rolleyes:
I know that if they did not have Big Brother USA backing them up they'd likely have been eliminated long ago.
But apparently that's ok, huh??? That's exactly WHY we've "given Israel quite a few more weapons than we have the Palestinians". The Palestinians were the attackers, remember?
Who gave them to the money and the know-how to carry on the research into such weapon designs? The U.S.
No, their industry is their own. Despite the Arab League Boycott of 1945 (which, by virtue of them being there, kept Israel economically blackballed by their neighbors), we guided them into a free market environment where they do billions in trade with Asia, Europe, and not to mention, our country. Their products and technology result from 2 things; firstly, their understanding of business and economics, and secondly, foreign investment (i.e. the Berkshire Hathaway's, MicroSoft's, and Intel's out there). Last year, our gratis contributions to Israel only represented .07% of their total GDP, but yet their economy grew 8% in the last quarter of 2006 - which was faster growth than any Western nation experienced, but I digress. Point is - no other country in the region (save the UAE) does anywhere near as well with the resources Israel has, and the kicker is, they've done it without oil. In short, they're showing themselves to be the masters of electronic and biomedical equipment, processed foods, chemicals, weapons, and transport equipment.

That said, nothing in life falls outside the boundaries of cause and effect. They were repeatedly attacked; we protected them. They championed free trade; their economy boomed. They strive to develop through science and technology, and in 1998, Tel Aviv was named one of the ten most technologically influential cities in the world. Their success is their own, FT. Just like South Korea, all we did was point 'em in the right direction.

When all is said and done, a simple formula's responsible for everything:

Play ball = everyone prospers

Don't play ball = you must be a "proud" Muslim or a communist, but either way, it's immaterial because you're clearly incapable of discerning what matters in life. IOW, you're a roadblock to prosperity, an impediment to the global economy, and IMHO, that makes you a liability. When you start playing with my pocketbook, all bets are off....I'll burn you alive.
I'm simply pointing out that absent the megatons of weaponry and the billions of dollars and support yearly from the USA, they'd be in the SAME boat as the ""ridiculously weak and pathetic Arab militaries"" that were mentioned.
Probably. Of course, it's a moot point because they would've been eradicated a long time ago if they weren't assisted by "Big Brother USA", right?

As for me, injustice is injustice, whether an Israeli, Palestinian, or American carries it out.

I agree with you. The only problem is is that injustice is a relative term. Walking into a pizza parlor and blowing yourself and a bunch of innocent people up is an injustice to the Israelis, and something to be lauded in the Arab world. Bulldozing the homes of those that did the killing is good for the Israelis, and of course frowned upon by the Arabs. There are no universal morals in this world apparently.

What I don't understand is the viewpoint of people like FT who can be so black and white in such a fluid world. Everything is America's fault, everything is Israel's fault, everything is everyone elses fault except for the group/ideal that he adhears to. I only cite FT because he is the most unmovable/biased person on this board. I have met many a person like this. They will not agree with anything in which you say that is contrary to their belief. They cannot see where other people come from, no empathy at all. THAT is the problem. It's just the same as the institution in which he rails against so often, orginized religion. I myself think orginized religion is the worst thing to happen to mankind. However, I can still understand why people choose to believe in what the believe in. I am under the distinct impression that religion is the main cause for most strife in the world today, including the middle east. At least on a macro scale. That is all for another thread though.

In conclusion, it is my humble opinion that Israel has a right to exist. Period.
It is also my opinion that the continual back and fourth killing over there is stupid, and it is, deep down, for no other reason that Jews are Jews and Muslims are Muslims.


/rant over

It's just the same as the institution in which he rails against so often, orginized religion. I myself think orginized religion is the worst thing to happen to mankind. However, I can still understand why people choose to believe in what the believe in. I am under the distinct impression that religion is the main cause for most strife in the world today, including the middle east. At least on a macro scale. That is all for another thread though.

In conclusion, it is my humble opinion that Israel has a right to exist. Period.
I fully agree. Well said.

What I don't understand is the viewpoint of people like FT who can be so black and white in such a fluid world. Everything is America's fault, everything is Israel's fault, everything is everyone elses fault except for the group/ideal that he adhears to. I only cite FT because he is the most unmovable/biased person on this board.
I think you mistake FT's remarkable consistency with zealotry. FT is anything but a zealot. FT adheres to an ideology, certainly, and his statements and opinions reflect that. There's nothing wrong with that. It's when you sacrifice all semblance of dignity and morality for your cause that you become an ideologue, as many media figures do, like Sean Hannity. FT has never done that. He does not resort to half-truths and obfuscation. He does not pander. In his mind, those who perpetuate war for personal and political gain are the supreme evil. In that sense, I have to agree with him.

In his mind, those who perpetuate war for personal and political gain are the supreme evil.
Nonsense. His take on the Georgian conflict alone is proof that the only consistent portion of his arguments center on being fervently anti-western. I mean, he's biased to such an obvious degree that it borders on ridiculous to attempt arguing the point.