President of Georgia Saakashvili broke fragile peace in South Ossetia cultivated by civilized states of Europe for nearly 15 years!
Fancy that Georgian peace keepers shot into Russian peacekeepers and international Red Cross reps there!
Saakashvili betrayed civilized Europe and its peaceful agenda in the Caucasus.
I guess we can’t swallow this! We must boycott Georgian goods here! We must demonstrate in the vicinity of the Georgian diplomatic missions in Europe! Our fans in Beijing must hiss off Georgian betrayers there too, both their fans and participants in the sporting events!

President of Georgia Saakashvili broke fragile peace in South Ossetia cultivated by civilized states of Europe for nearly 15 years!
Fancy that Georgian peace keepers shot into Russian peacekeepers and international Red Cross reps there!
Saakashvili betrayed civilized Europe and its peaceful agenda in the Caucasus.
I guess we can’t swallow this! We must boycott Georgian goods here! We must demonstrate in the vicinity of the Georgian diplomatic missions in Europe! Our fans in Beijing must hiss off Georgian betrayers there too, both their fans and participants in the sporting events!

place a link about it, sure I have read about it but I want to read the version you read.

Here is the dispatch for the news reports. Whether to believe what is said when the Russians were so well ready to launch this operations is up to the readers.

http://www.prime-tass.com/news/show.asp?topicid=0&id=442626

Here is what is going on today.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html

My guess is that Russia is trying to conquer Georgia to keep it trying to join NATO, and that the timing is while everyone is watching the Olympics.

I think it wasnt a coincidence that the invasion happened right when the opening ceremony of the Olympics were occurring.

No, I don't believe it was. This was well planned and orchestated. I don't know what the best response is to do, but something should be done, and some sort of consequences be taken for what is being done.

I think it wasnt a coincidence that the invasion happened right when the opening ceremony of the Olympics were occurring.


What better time to invade a country than when all the world leaders are away form their home countries and in China?

Here from a news report on CNN is the motive.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html

"The finger-pointing over which side began the battle last Thursday intensified with Russia accusing Georgia of a genocidal plot to cleanse the region of ethnic Ossetians loyal to Russia. Georgia accuses Russia of executing a long-planned war to take control of a pipeline that carries Asian oil to Black Sea ports.

"Russia's Black Sea navy imposed a blockade on Georgia's coast, which it said was aimed at stopping shipments of military supplies into the country, according to Interfax, Russia's official news agency.

"Urkaine, which, like Georgia, is a former Soviet republic, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said."

Funny how it is that when a war shows up, the oil is where the motive is.

Its strange Imagineer, I think that this century will be the century were nations fight over ever decreasing natural resources.

Its strange Imagineer, I think that this century will be the century were nations fight over ever decreasing natural resources.All the more reason to go full blast with renewables.

I've been thinking lately that we might have environmental wars too. What if, for example, global warming really kicks in and a country like China simply refuses to cut their emissions. Might not the rest of the world join forces to compel them? Or what about countries who pollute rivers that pass through another? Or divert water for their own purposes? I think the list of reasons for going to war will lengthen, at least in the short term.

All the more reason to go full blast with renewables.

I've been thinking lately that we might have environmental wars too. What if, for example, global warming really kicks in and a country like China simply refuses to cut their emissions. Might not the rest of the world join forces to compel them? Or what about countries who pollute rivers that pass through another? Or divert water for their own purposes? I think the list of reasons for going to war will lengthen, at least in the short term.

Yeah we're already seeing it happen.
The Aral Sea, where its two main feeder rivers were diverted to some insane
Soviet farming project, has nearly killed the sae off completely, only 10%
of it remains, and in the last few years that 10% has split into 3 lakes.

The access to fresh water, as you say is the most pressing issue.

http://www.fpif.org/fpif/5016

I am happy that I live in one of the regions that is abundant in fresh water. The legal manuvering going on to prevent from the Great Lakes exported is interesting, and will eventually become a problem. I could think a war could be fight for water here, like fights have always been fight for resources.

Whats happening with the lakes ?

I live in Ireland-forget about not having water-it rains everyday.

Tho joke aside, catchment is very poor here.

The world trade treaties say that water is a resource, and the WTF says that no impending to laws that prevent other people can using it. They say no laws can say how much other people can take it away and use it at the market price. In the region, people are trying to stop it from it being all taking it away and leaving a big hole.

Their has been a treaty of the states in the region, along with a couple provinces in Canada have a Compact that is trying to say any water taking away for use must be returned in it's original condition afterward. Here is the text of the compact, which has I think been ratified by all of the states and provinces.

http://www.glc.org/about/glbc.html

Legally it is interesting. A state can't legally have a treaty with any foreign government, just like a region in Ireland couldn't have a treaty with a foreign country without the permission of the Irish government.

It isn't a crisis yet, but it could be in the future when all the legal wrangling is over and someone tries to actually take the water away.

I read the link thanks.
Question comes to mind.
As only 2 nations share the lakes wouldnt it be a simple process to agree a
'joint water management' law, which both sides can enforce.
That said, there is a similar problem here.

The Lakes, which rise in Co Fermanagh-North Ireland,
drain into the Atlantic at Ballyshannon Co Donegal-Republic.

In Ballyshannon the water board dammed the river from the lake and built a hydro power station on it, in effect, controlling the level of the lakes.

From Andy McCarthy at the National Review (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmIxMGNhOGMyYzFhNDA5ODRmZjVhNjVmMWEzMWMyOTg=):

"I suppose if we are thinking about turning our country over to the second Carter term — or the first McGovern — it shouldn't surprise anyone to see Russia go into its Aghanistan mode ... or Czechoslovakia ... or Hungary ... or (as Roger reminds us) Georgia."

See? It's Obama's fault already.

I wonder if they'll blame him for the invasion of Iraq if he's elected.

To be honestI find a lot of the blame game in US politics, silly.
Ya know every oppertunity to point the finger, even in situations like this were the election is a non starter, what is the point.

It would easier for Canada and the United States to simply have a treaty, but the rest of the United States is not willing. There is a plan to build a massive pipeline from Illinois to Texas to take water where they are nearly out of their underground water. Remember that our President is from Texas, and that there are more votes in arid areas of the United States than in the Great Lakes region.

From Andy McCarthy at the National Review (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmIxMGNhOGMyYzFhNDA5ODRmZjVhNjVmMWEzMWMyOTg=):

"I suppose if we are thinking about turning our country over to the second Carter term — or the first McGovern — it shouldn't surprise anyone to see Russia go into its Aghanistan mode ... or Czechoslovakia ... or Hungary ... or (as Roger reminds us) Georgia."

See? It's Obama's fault already.

I wonder if they'll blame him for the invasion of Iraq if he's elected.

I thought they all ready blamed Obama for not stopping the invasion of Poland in 1939. :D

It would easier for Canada and the United States to simply have a treaty, but the rest of the United States is not willing. There is a plan to build a massive pipeline from Illinois to Texas to take water where they are nearly out of their underground water. Remember that our President is from Texas, and that there are more votes in arid areas of the United States than in the Great Lakes region.

Ah right.
That puts a whole new perspective on the situation.

Tho I would have though taking the runoff from the Mississippi,Arkansas, Red or Missouri would have been a more practical solution.

Ah right.
That puts a whole new perspective on the situation.

Tho I would have though taking the runoff from the Mississippi,Arkansas, Red or Missouri would have been a more practical solution.

That has also been talked about it, but would be more expensive. There is another water in the area of the Mississippi River and it's basin, the problem is southern and western Texas, and that would have to have a pipeline from the Mississippi River. The alternative is to make some of the rivers flow in the other direction, but it is expensive to make the water go up hill.

I thought they all ready blamed Obama for not stopping the invasion of Poland in 1939. :D
Bwaahahahahahahaha! :rolleyes:

A smaller, weaker nation's territorial soverignty is compromised by a larger, more powerful country. The latter thumbs its nose at international law and global opinion and won't leave when it wears out its welcome. Where does Russia get such nutty ideas?

Of course w/o a trace of self-awareness nor a sense of irony, the CHENEY-bush people are outraged and trying to expel Russia's troops from Georgia when they should be expelling our guys from Iraq! W went as far to say that all bets are off if Russia advances on Turner Field.

Five more months. Why can't we have the election and inauguration tomorrow? At this point, when the White House phone rings at 3AM or whenever, wouldn't we all settle for someone who talks into the right end?

If Russia invade North Korea, anything will be fine.

strange how two opposing armies are both called peace keepers

Yeah especially when one [Georgia] isnt.

You should see all the peacekeeping the Russian army did in Afghanistan. :thumbs:

How certain people can think they're at fault for simply instigating, er, manufacturing this conflict is simply beyond me. :confused:

I mean, they're basically blameless.

Its amazing to see the usual suspects protecting the usual anti american participant yet again. If the devil blew up Poland these people would say Poland was asking for it.

Exactly right.

Its amazing to see the usual suspects protecting the usual anti american participant yet again. If the devil blew up Poland these people would say Poland was asking for it.

Nah, dont think so.
Just because Bush is pushing for a new cold war with the Ruskies doesnt mean we all have to fall in line behind him, tho obviously some already have.

So Bush made Russia invade Georgia so we could have a new cold war? Don't be a fool Paul. You are starting to sound like that idiot freethinker.

So Bush made Russia invade Georgia so we could have a new cold war? Don't be a fool Paul. You are starting to sound like that idiot freethinker.

No Trav. Bush started allowing former Warsaw Pact nations into the Western military alliance NATO.
Ukraine and Georgia being the next on the list. Poland is even introducing the 'missile shield' supposedly to offset an Iranian launch against Europe, in reality to protect the United States from Russian inter continentals.
Basically, ringfencing Russia. So,when the Georgians thought they were pally enough with the White House, they attacked South Ossetia, in the belief that Bush would rally to their aid, militarily. The Russians had enough, and invaded, its a dangerous game the Georgians played.

SO basically the former soviet states can now decide what they want to do on thier own and russia doesnt like it so it is our fault?

SO basically the former soviet states can now decide what they want to do on thier own and russia doesnt like it so it is our fault?

No problem with former states deciding their own future, thats what freedom is all about.
What NATO and Washington should have done was refuse membership to them, making a buffer
zone of nations between East and West.

Doing this would undermine extreme nationalism in Moscow, and the instrument which keeps Putin
and his gang in power.

The threat from the West.

If they're not careful, they can say good-bye to their G-8 status. Let's see what that does to their already "stellar" economy. Go ahead and fuck with the oil supply, Russia; let's see how your population takes to eating their clothing. Maybe we should oblige them with a list of the ways we can burn their asses.

No problem with former states deciding their own future, thats what freedom is all about.
What NATO and Washington should have done was refuse membership to them, making a buffer
zone of nations between East and West.

Doing this would undermine extreme nationalism in Moscow, and the instrument which keeps Putin
and his gang in power.

The threat from the West.

Refuse entry to them based on what? Not wanting to piss off the Russians? Sorry, but America does not make it's decisions based on what another country might do because of it. try doing that with your kids, see where that gets you. "oh, we better not send Johnny to bed early tonight, he might get mad". Little Johnny will have his parents by the short hairs the rest of their lives.

Those nations are free nations. IF we are to deny them entry into something they want to join we better have a better reason then "It will upset Putin". Sorry paul, but that is the European way to look at things, and looking bck at history, the wrong way.

If they're not careful, they can say good-bye to their G-8 status. Let's see what that does to their already "stellar" economy. Go ahead and fuck with the oil supply, Russia; let's see how your population takes to eating their clothing. Maybe we should oblige them with a list of the ways we can burn their asses.

Well Prae, to be honest, I dont think the EU is in a position to dump the Russians, there are way too many
EU countries dependant on Russian oil, and especially Russian gas, to isolate Moscow.

Refuse entry to them based on what? Not wanting to piss off the Russians? Sorry, but America does not make it's decisions based on what another country might do because of it. try doing that with your kids, see where that gets you. "oh, we better not send Johnny to bed early tonight, he might get mad". Little Johnny will have his parents by the short hairs the rest of their lives.

Those nations are free nations. IF we are to deny them entry into something they want to join we better have a better reason then "It will upset Putin". Sorry paul, but that is the European way to look at things, and looking bck at history, the wrong way.
So fuckin' true.

Well Prae, to be honest, I dont think the EU is in a position to dump the Russians, there are way too many
EU countries dependant on Russian oil, and especially Russian gas, to isolate Moscow.
Do you think we'd let 'em freeze you? Are you kidding? I'm sorry, Paul, but if you misbehave, you get slapped.

Refuse entry to them based on what? Not wanting to piss off the Russians? Sorry, but America does not make it's decisions based on what another country might do because of it. try doing that with your kids, see where that gets you. "oh, we better not send Johnny to bed early tonight, he might get mad". Little Johnny will have his parents by the short hairs the rest of their lives.

Those nations are free nations. IF we are to deny them entry into something they want to join we better have a better reason then "It will upset Putin". Sorry paul, but that is the European way to look at things, and looking bck at history, the wrong way.

Well Trav, I think I may have came across as opting to appease Putin, that was not my intention.
By refusing former states entry into NATO, hopefully that scenario undermines Putin, and with it Democracy
has a chance to grow.

Lets be honest, NATO ie American aggression and Russian aggression is very fucken bad for my health.

Do you think we'd let 'em freeze you? Are you kidding? I'm sorry, Paul, but if you misbehave, you get slapped.

Oh Cmon, are you suggesting the US could supply heating and cooking fuel, never mind car gas to central and eastern Europe, not a chance.

Well Trav, I think I may have came across as opting to appease Putin, that was not my intention.
By refusing former states entry into NATO, hopefully that scenario undermines Putin, and with it Democracy
has a chance to grow.

Lets be honest, NATO ie American aggression and Russian aggression is very fucken bad for my health.
Undermine him by giving him what he wants? Good plan :rolleyes:

Undermine him by giving him what he wants? Good plan :rolleyes:

Undermining him by taking away his reason to re-arm The Red Army.
He keeps telling his power base Russia is under threat from NATO,
he has a point.

and you think he needs a real reason? Any reason will do Paul. Did Europeans learn nothing from history? Sticking your head in the sand solves nothing!

and you think he needs a real reason? Any reason will do Paul. Did Europeans learn nothing from history? Sticking your head in the sand solves nothing!

Well history doesnt always tell us about the future.
I can understand the reasons why former states wish to join NATO, thats not the issue.
I have to ask, as Russia [at present] hols no threat to Europe, why ring fence it with
American missile systems.

To protect Europe from Iranian missiles. Unless Russia plans on launching nukes across Europe they have nothing to fear. Seriously, we have enough nukes pointed at russia as it is, how is a short range defensive missile system putting them in any more danger from us then they already are? We may tip them with nukes and they all die 2 minutes earlier then they would of from our MX misslies launched from America?

To protect Europe from Iranian missiles. Unless Russia plans on launching nukes across Europe they have nothing to fear. Seriously, we have enough nukes pointed at russia as it is, how is a short range defensive missile system putting them in any more danger from us then they already are? We may tip them with nukes and they all die 2 minutes earlier then they would of from our MX misslies launched from America?

My concern is having my body temperature being raised to 10,000 degrees to accommodate either side.

Well then you better hope that missile shield works.

To protect Europe from Iranian missiles. Unless Russia plans on launching nukes across Europe they have nothing to fear. Seriously, we have enough nukes pointed at russia as it is, how is a short range defensive missile system putting them in any more danger from us then they already are? We may tip them with nukes and they all die 2 minutes earlier then they would of from our MX misslies launched from America?
Exactly. We have nothing to gain by placing offensive missiles 1,500 miles closer to Moscow. Despite all their posturing, we have tactical nuclear submarines that can infiltrate their territory, undetected, as it is. That said, given the obvious, the shield is exactly what it's purported to be; a fuckin' SHIELD. Given their aggressive track record, they should consider this a KIND gesture on our part.

My concern is having my body temperature being raised to 10,000 degrees to accommodate either side.
A likely scenario, for sure. :rolleyes:

Well then you better hope that missile shield works.

What the shield that doesnt target Russian missiles.

A likely scenario, for sure. :rolleyes:

Yeah your right. I live less than 200 miles from Barrow in Furness, ya know where the Brits build their subs.

Why would the russians blow up a brit sub factory for an american missile base in Poland?

Why would the russians blow up a brit sub factory for an american missile base in Poland?

Why.
These thing have a tendency to escalate rapidly.
One day its a local dispute on the Polish border, the next, Armageddon.

Oh Cmon, are you suggesting the US could supply heating and cooking fuel, never mind car gas to central and eastern Europe, not a chance.
Not at all. I'm saying we'd starve 'em to death if they even tried it. China can hardly feed itself as it is. Where are the Russians gonna go? How are they gonna make ANY money? Effectually, they'll have pissed off the only people who can actually pay the bills.

Not at all. I'm saying we'd starve 'em to death if they even tried it. China can hardly feed itself as it is. Where are the Russians gonna go? How are they gonna make ANY money? Effectually, they'll have pissed off the only people who can actually pay the bills.

Yes, and that is one of my arguments for not needing military actions, we're the biggest market they have.
Most Russians are young educated people, who want to live in the EU anyway, and just want the Putins of this world to fuck off and leave them alone.

Its the 'old guard' of diehards who have seen their Empire crumble that want to match American fire power,
antagonising them, allows them to succeed, they should be shown for the dinosaurs they are, and ignored.

Should be interesting to see if the war of words between Brussels and Moscow solves anything.

Yes, and that is one of my arguments for not needing military actions, we're the biggest market they have.
Most Russians are young educated people, who want to live in the EU anyway, and just want the Putins of this world to fuck off and leave them alone.

Its the 'old guard' of diehards who have seen their Empire crumble that want to match American fire power,
antagonising them, allows them to succeed, they should be shown for the dinosaurs they are, and ignored.

Should be interesting to see if the war of words between Brussels and Moscow solves anything.
Okay, that's a reasonable assessment. What pisses me off is that these morons actually think they can go toe-to-toe with us, which is laughable, to say the least.

Okay, that's a reasonable assessment. What pisses me off is that these morons actually think they can go toe-to-toe with us, which is laughable, to say the least.

It would take an Alien invasion to square up to you guys, there is nothing on this planet that could.
Tho that in itself scares most of the world.

Good.

Good.

Good, good it aint, it causes resentment, fear and suspicion.

And respect.

Tho that in itself scares most of the world.
To be honest, I'm sorry that's the case. I sincerely believe that we'd never do anything to intentionally hurt people, but that's not to say that we haven't played the ends against the middle. To my eternal dismay, I'm well aware of the fact that we've been unfair in the past.

Good talk, Paul. Gotta run. :)

And respect.
That's the wrong kinda "respect", Trav.

To be honest, I'm sorry that's the case. I sincerely believe that we'd never do anything to intentionally hurt people, but that's not to say that we haven't played the ends against the middle. To my eternal dismay, I'm well aware of the fact that we've been unfair in the past.

Good talk, Paul. Gotta run. :)
Later bro.

And respect.
I dont think it does actually to be honest, sure as fuck makes people sit up and pay attention, but respect,
nah, cant see that.

Once a nation becomes so powerful it has no real adversaries [like America], it doesnt really need any
allies, and can basically do as it wishes.