Syria says its ready to put a Russian missile system on its soil as a counterweight to US plans to deploy a missile shield in Poland and the
Czech Republic.

The offer was made during a meeting between Syrian leader Basher Asad and
Russian President Medvedev in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29318

Let em do it. We will destroy syria at the same time we destroy Russia.

Let em do it. We will destroy syria at the same time we destroy Russia.

What would you want to destroy Syria or Russia for ?

What would you want to destroy Syria or Russia for ?

We wouldn't. It's just a knee-jerk Cold War reaction. :)

It isn't the United States who is bringing back cold war feelings. I'd say that blame rests on Russia who is trying to start problems with a pro-west and pro-democratic country for no justifiable reason.

This is one of those instances where I say: bring it on. Russia can kiss my ass.

It isn't the United States who is bringing back cold war feelings. I'd say that blame rests on Russia who is trying to start problems with a pro-west and pro-democratic country for no justifiable reason.

This is one of those instances where I say: bring it on. Russia can kiss my ass.
I don't think those feelings ever went away on either side. It's only been 17 years, that's not even a generation. The only group of people who don't remember it are still too young to have any real political power anyways.

I don't think those feelings ever went away on either side. It's only been 17 years, that's not even a generation. The only group of people who don't remember it are still too young to have any real political power anyways.
Well, are our feelings justified?

Well, are our feelings justified?
I think both side's feelings are justified. Neither acted very appropriately for 50 years.

It isn't the United States who is bringing back cold war feelings. I'd say that blame rests on Russia who is trying to start problems with a pro-west and pro-democratic country for no justifiable reason.

This is one of those instances where I say: bring it on. Russia can kiss my ass.

Russia is accusing the US of trying to establish a regime even more brutal that Hitlers Nazi Regime was..something called a NEW WORLD ORDER!! :eek: This Order is supposed to be aimed at systematically subduing or destroying all people of color thoughout the world (mainly through genocide), and creating a one world, one government system, that would rule over all the world the same as it rules over its own minorities!

According to them, every since the end of WWII, every military conflict the US has been involved in have all been against people of color. They have all been against non-white nations...all of them....every last one (with the exception of bosnia, masadonia, and croatia). Each bombing brings our armed forces closer and closer to their borders, and they feel that in order to stop us, they will have to resort to the same measures that they did against the Nazi's!

We of course are NOT Nazi's, but from what I can understand, thats the way they see us. :(

Well, are our feelings justified?
No, your feelings aren't justified. George knew when it invaded South Ossetia that Russia wouldn't be pleased, and they went ahead with it anyway knowing the consequences. They're fools and only did that because they thought the big bad US of A wouldn't leave them out to dry. Russia's getting a little cocky with the nationalism, but it's time little countries like Georgia realise that the U.S. is running out of money and won't fight for them anymore.

Well Dunkirk whoever it was said that, should they be Russian or American,
were wrong.

What is happening tho,is the nations bordering Russia are queueing up to join western military alliances, not only that, as soon as they do, Bush is setting up missile shields encircling them, who is provoking who.

No, your feelings aren't justified. George knew when it invaded South Ossetia that Russia wouldn't be pleased, and they went ahead with it anyway knowing the consequences. They're fools and only did that because they thought the big bad US of A wouldn't leave them out to dry. Russia's getting a little cocky with the nationalism, but it's time little countries like Georgia realise that the U.S. is running out of money and won't fight for them anymore.
How does this, in any way, tell me why my feelings shouldn't be justified?

So to justify one inexcusable action, you point out another?

How does this, in any way, tell me why my feelings shouldn't be justified?

So to justify one inexcusable action, you point out another?
Think about this, then. Georgia invades an independent area in order to reclaim it as part of the Georgian state, right? The problem is, they know the Russians support the South Ossetians and will, and did, use military force to repel and crush the Georgian act of aggression. Now, it should be known that I don't approve of the lacklustre performance of the Russian military in concerns to its treatment of civilian life, but that is for a different conversation.

You then react by accusing Russia of stirring up Cold War tensions when it is the United States and its allies which have gotten the media to launch a propaganda campaign against Russia for protecting one part of the world's right to self-determination. Don't get me wrong on this point, either. I realise Russia is just as imperialistic as the U.S., and that they undoubtedly have domination of S. Ossetia/Abkhazia in mind. Regardless, it is definitely the U.S. that's stirring shit up.

Think about this, then. Georgia invades an independent area in order to reclaim it as part of the Georgian state, right? The problem is, they know the Russians support the South Ossetians and will, and did, use military force to repel and crush the Georgian act of aggression. Now, it should be known that I don't approve of the lacklustre performance of the Russian military in concerns to its treatment of civilian life, but that is for a different conversation.

You then react by accusing Russia of stirring up Cold War tensions when it is the United States and its allies which have gotten the media to launch a propaganda campaign against Russia for protecting one part of the world's right to self-determination. Don't get me wrong on this point, either. I realise Russia is just as imperialistic as the U.S., and that they undoubtedly have domination of S. Ossetia/Abkhazia in mind. Regardless, it is definitely the U.S. that's stirring shit up.
Overall I agree with your assessment -- except I doubt the Georgians expected the Russian response, which I think was planned well in advance.

Saakashvili was rather taken aback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49wOzZdWWYM

Overall I agree with your assessment -- except I doubt the Georgians expected the Russian response, which I think was planned well in advance.

Saakashvili was rather taken aback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49wOzZdWWYM
Haha, what an asshole.

I think you're right that they didn't expect such consequences, but only because they that their guardian angel, America, would protect them. Too bad America's no money or man-power for such an event. Serves them right.

Think about this, then. Georgia invades an independent area in order to reclaim it as part of the Georgian state, right? The problem is, they know the Russians support the South Ossetians and will, and did, use military force to repel and crush the Georgian act of aggression. Now, it should be known that I don't approve of the lacklustre performance of the Russian military in concerns to its treatment of civilian life, but that is for a different conversation.

You then react by accusing Russia of stirring up Cold War tensions when it is the United States and its allies which have gotten the media to launch a propaganda campaign against Russia for protecting one part of the world's right to self-determination. Don't get me wrong on this point, either. I realise Russia is just as imperialistic as the U.S., and that they undoubtedly have domination of S. Ossetia/Abkhazia in mind. Regardless, it is definitely the U.S. that's stirring shit up.
When the world told Russia to get out, they didn't. Finally, with increased pressure from the world (not just the United States) they finally began to "pull out". Now we have reports that the Russians just moved from one area to another throughout Georgia. That's bullshit. Furthermore, if Russia has a problem with Georgia and what they're doing, they don't have the right to take matters into their own hands. Granted, we are guilty of doing that too. But that's why I don't support the war in Iraq or the aggression by Russia.

Again, I don't see why one inexcusable action --Georgia invading an independent area-- is being used to excuse another inexcusable action, Russia invading Georgia. That does not make any sense what-so-ever.

The bottom line is: Russia doesn't and didn't have the right to take matters into their own hands.

When the world told Russia to get out, they didn't. Finally, with increased pressure from the world (not just the United States) they finally began to "pull out". Now we have reports that the Russians just moved from one area to another throughout Georgia. That's bullshit. Furthermore, if Russia has a problem with Georgia and what they're doing, they don't have the right to take matters into their own hands. Granted, we are guilty of doing that too. But that's why I don't support the war in Iraq or the aggression by Russia.

Again, I don't see why one inexcusable action --Georgia invading an independent area-- is being used to excuse another inexcusable action, Russia invading Georgia. That does not make any sense what-so-ever.

The bottom line is: Russia doesn't and didn't have the right to take matters into their own hands.
Why is it bullshit if Russia is taking Georgia to school for being an aggressor? Even though they are violating their own truce, which they shouldn't have signed if they were just going to go ahead and kick some ass anyway, Georgia has brought this all on upon themselves.

You had nothing to do with the Iraq War, so don't use the inclusive term 'we', it's why I always say 'they' in reference to any action by the American armed forces because I have no ties to them and take no part in their actions.

Why does Russia not have the right to take matters into their own hands? Their defenceless ally was attacked and almost decimated by the Georgian army. If anything, Russia's just being a good ally.

Why is it bullshit if Russia is taking Georgia to school for being an aggressor? Even though they are violating their own truce, which they shouldn't have signed if they were just going to go ahead and kick some ass anyway, Georgia has brought this all on upon themselves.
Well if that isn't right from the George Bush playbook, I don't know what is! So you feel a country has the right to determine --on their own-- if a country deserves to be attacked, even if it violates international law? That's pretty scary!

You had nothing to do with the Iraq War, so don't use the inclusive term 'we', it's why I always say 'they' in reference to any action by the American armed forces because I have no ties to them and take no part in their actions.
Ok Mr. Technical! Jeez, you and Decka need to become friends. :)

Why does Russia not have the right to take matters into their own hands? Their defenceless ally was attacked and almost decimated by the Georgian army. If anything, Russia's just being a good ally.
Do you honestly believe those were Russia's motives? Gimme a break. It's a nice excuse to try and destroy a pro-west country.

Well if that isn't right from the George Bush playbook, I don't know what is! So you feel a country has the right to determine --on their own-- if a country deserves to be attacked, even if it violates international law? That's pretty scary!
No, I do not, but I do believe that if a little nation like Georgia has balls enough to pull that kind of shit, let them reap what they sow.


Ok Mr. Technical! Jeez, you and Decka need to become friends. :)
I don't know much about this Decka guy, obviously, but I gather he's a wanna-be-mod, and I was just giving a suggestion in concerns to using the kind of language that those people want us to use.


Do you honestly believe those were Russia's motives? Gimme a break. It's a nice excuse to try and destroy a pro-west country.
I highly doubt those were Russia's motives, but that was the excuse they needed to conquer Georgia. Georgia gave them this opportunity, so like I said before, let them reap what they've sown!

No, I do not, but I do believe that if a little nation like Georgia has balls enough to pull that kind of shit, let them reap what they sow.
So then lets allow Russia to pull some bullshit and break international law too?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

I highly doubt those were Russia's motives, but that was the excuse they needed to conquer Georgia. Georgia gave them this opportunity, so like I said before, let them reap what they've sown!
I'm confused by your logic. Georgia causes injustice, so we should allow Russia to cause injustice too? How juvenile.

So then lets allow Russia to pull some bullshit and break international law too?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

I'm not saying that there won't be any consequences for Russia's actions, and I'm sure there will be some temporary economic penalties, but when it comes to superpowers, it's hard to police them unless you overthrow them.


I'm confused by your logic. Georgia causes injustice, so we should allow Russia to cause injustice too? How juvenile.
Justice is a relative term. You see Russia's actions in opposition to justice, and I don't see it quite that way.

I'm not saying that there won't be any consequences for Russia's actions, and I'm sure there will be some temporary economic penalties, but when it comes to superpowers, it's hard to police them unless you overthrow them.
Russia is a superpower?

Justice is a relative term. You see Russia's actions in opposition to justice, and I don't see it quite that way.
I don't think justice is a relative term. I think there is a common standard of justice most people live by and Russia stepped over that line. As did Georgia. Both are at fault. But that doesn't justify Russia's action in retaliation to Georgia's aggression. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But if (as you say) you are supposed to support and defend your allies --as Russia did when they supported South Ossetia-- why are we penalized and wrong for supporting our ally, the pro-west country of Georgia?

If the Iskander System as is thought possible put in Syria, it is a threat. Not the end of the world, but an improvement of the SCUDs which couldn.t hit much of anything. They are mobile, like the SCUDs. They could be used to hit many importmants, but it would not last long in a conflict. They would be hit from air and or other missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iskander

I think the petty squabbling over who's at fault in terms of the tension between Russia and the U.S. is rather counterproductive... Of course I think the media is exaggerating the whole "Cold War resentments flaring" thing, but getting into a political conflict with Russia would probably not be the best idea anyways.

Also, I think I'm gonna have to agree with OD's basic premise here, one of my favorites: two wrongs don't make a right!

Russia is a superpower?
I would classify them as one. Sure, they're just a second-world nation, and they don't have the economic might as they did back in the days of the USSR, but they did just tear Georgia to pieces. I think that proves their military prowess. Not to mention they have a gajillion nukes.


I don't think justice is a relative term. I think there is a common standard of justice most people live by and Russia stepped over that line. As did Georgia. Both are at fault. But that doesn't justify Russia's action in retaliation to Georgia's aggression. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I think that neither of us will end up agreeing on this point. I'm something of a moral relativist, so I don't see either of us seeing each others' points as they both have their flaws.

But if (as you say) you are supposed to support and defend your allies --as Russia did when they supported South Ossetia-- why are we penalized and wrong for supporting our ally, the pro-west country of Georgia?
The thing is, though, the U.S. will not be penalised for their actions. What they're doing is indeed sticking up for their ally, but they are going about it in underhanded ways and using disinformation and propaganda to get their point across. To me, this offends my sense of right and wrong while Russia's actions do not.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from and I don't think you to be entirely wrong. I'm just a relativist and don't hold common ideals such as justice to the same scrutiny as everyone else. I do realise that the real world will never see things the way I do, and don't expect or want it to, but that in concerns to the popular concept of justice you are quite correct, it's just my personal view which is in opposition.

Also, I think I'm gonna have to agree with OD's basic premise here, one of my favorites: two wrongs don't make a right!
Thanks DF!

I dissected Russian strategy with invade.
I guess they look to take infrastructure to sea. Maybe reason of halting war for Russia is destruction of bridge nearby capital to west. Russian forces abandon occupation Georgia because there aren't benefit by preventing logistics in Georgia. But they still check port in Georgia(sorry I don't know spelling of the name.) I guess it's the evidence they'll invade again
after infrastructure restored in Georgia.
As long as my analysis is correct, purpose of missile base in Syria is manifestness. They seek taking over Turkey, not Iraq. Balance of power will be complex.

But I don't know why Russian has such ambition now. Exporting oil didn't been prevented by any way. Far from it, trading must be predented by this conflict. I don't have enough information to think it, but it's the most mystery of Russian decision for me.

So, Russian forces doesn't think about South-Osetia. If they think it, they must keep entire of South-Osetia. Russian forces doesn't think about South-Osetia, but they want keeping conflict with Georgia.
Hmm, it'll be hard.

But I guess US may retreat from Afghanistan and help Georgia.
If so, Russian forces will intrude Afghanistan instead of giving up Georgia. And, something will happen again.:cool:

It isn't the United States who is bringing back cold war feelings.

Yes, Overdose, it is the US that's bringing them back. There are reports that the U.S. actively manuevered Georgia into thinking it could take over Ossetia and the U.S. would "have their back". They sent them signals to that effect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How the U.S. Invited a War in South Ossetia

http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/how-the-us-invited-a-war-in-south-ossetia-winnersloosers/


The writing has been on the wall for months. Georgian President Saakashvili’s fawning over Western leaders at the “emergency” NATO meeting in April and his pre-election anti-Russian bluster in May made it clear to all that Georgia is the more-than-willing canary in the Eastern mine shaft. The Georgian attack on South Ossetia’s capital Tskhinvali — I repeat — just hours after Saakashvili declared a cease-fire, looks very much like an attempt to reincorporate the rebel province into Georgia unilaterally. But whoever is advising the brash young president ignores the postscript -- South Ossetia has been independent for 16 years and is not likely to drape flowers on invading Georgia tanks. It also just happens to have Russia as patron.


This is yet another made-in-the-USA war. US President George W Bush loudly supported Georgia’s request to join NATO in April, much to the consternation of European leaders. NATO promised to send advisers in December. Not losing any time, the US sent more than 1,000 US Marines and soldiers to the Vaziani military base on the South Ossetian border in July “to teach combat skills to Georgian troops.” The UN Security Council failed to reach an agreement on the current crisis after three emergency meetings. A Russian-drafted statement that called on Georgia and the separatists to “renounce the use of force” was vetoed by the US, UK and France. To dispel any conceivable doubt, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday: “We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia’s territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil.”

But it’s also yet another made-in-Israel war. A thousand military advisers from Israeli security firms have been training the country’s armed forces and were deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to attack and capture the capital of South Ossetia, according to the Israeli web site Debkafiles which has close links with the regime’s intelligence and military sources. Haaretz reported that Yakobashvili told Army Radio — in Hebrew, “ Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers.” “We killed 60 Russian soldiers just yesterday,” he boasted on Monday. “The Russians have lost more than 50 tanks, and we have shot down 11 of their planes. They have enormous damage in terms of manpower.” He warned that the Russians would try and open another battlefront in Abkhazia and denied reports that the Georgian army was retreating. “The Georgian forces are not retreating. We move our military according to security needs.”

By Sunday, Putin was in Vladikavkaz and said it is unlikely South Ossetia will ever be reintegrated into Georgia. There are really only two possible scenarios to end the conflict: a long-term stalemate or Russian annexation of South Ossetia. The former is beginning to look pretty good, and Saakashvili is probably already ruing his rash move. The Georgian president is clearly hoping he can suck the US into the conflict. Alexander Lomaya, secretary of Georgia’s National Security Council, said only Western intervention could prevent all-out war. But it is very unlikely Bush will risk WWIII over this scrap of craggy mountain.

I'd say that blame rests on Russia who is trying to start problems with a pro-west and pro-democratic country for no justifiable reason.

Are you REALLY that gullible?

These things do not happen for "no reason".

It was very much in the interests of the far Right leaders in this country to provoke just such a confrontation; it is , as always, about the money. In this instance, oil money.

Russia --like the United States-- is bypassing international law and taking matters into their own hands. Two wrongs don't make a right and just because we do something that is inexcusable doesn't mean Russia gets to as well. Why hold us to a higher standard and Russia to a lower standard?

Furthermore, I'll concede and agree we are also bringing back cold war feelings. Which country is bringing them back more, I don't know.

Two wrongs don't make a right and just because we do something that is inexcusable doesn't mean Russia gets to as well.
Why do you think that is ?

Furthermore, I'll concede and agree we are also bringing back cold war feelings. Which country is bringing them back more, I don't know.
It seems the Russians are simply responding to situations originating on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Bush and Co invited East Europeans nations into NATO, why, were did he envisage the threat coming from ?

Bush and Co have a plan to encircle Russia with missiles, under the guise of a 'shield' to protect America from Muslim nations with inter-continental capability, a blind man could see thru that one.

Now Georgia, simply the next step in the Bush agenda, I think Moscow has had enough.

Georgia has brought this all on upon themselves.
Patently false. They were (for lack of a better word) taunted.
I always say 'they' in reference to any action by the American armed forces because I have no ties to them and take no part in their actions.
You surely do if your shitty town in Ohio is bombed by another nation.
If anything, Russia's just being a good ally.
And total instigator.

Bush and Co have a plan to encircle Russia with missiles, under the guise of a 'shield' to protect America from Muslim nations with inter-continental capability, a blind man could see thru that one.
Or certainly an Irish one with an Internet connection.

You surely do if your shitty town in Ohio is bombed by another nation.

Great point Prae. I often wonder if these people give this a thought at all sometimes. These same men and women that they tear down at every opportunity are the exact same ones that protect all our asses on a daily basis.

Or certainly an Irish one with an Internet connection.

Slan :D

Great point Prae. I often wonder if these people give this a thought at all sometimes. These same men and women that they tear down at every opportunity are the exact same ones that protect all our asses on a daily basis.

yea, we take it for granted big time.

Just like we take life for granted on a daily basis.

Interesting outlook.
Alas, no one protects my ass, bar me.

Don't be such a hater, paul. Of course the US protects you. With all the lip service it can muster.

Don't be such a hater, paul. Of course the US protects you. With all the lip service it can muster.

yeah yeah yeah

Let em do it. We will destroy syria at the same time we destroy Russia.


mmmmmm......... radiation. i can imagine it now..................
we all live downwind. idiot.

Don't be such a hater, paul. Of course the US protects you. With all the lip service it can muster.
Do you really believe that? If someone attacked Ireland they better run far and fast. I'd pity them if they even tried it.

Do you really believe that? If someone attacked Ireland they better run far and fast. I'd pity them if they even tried it.
Meaning what. The US would run to Irelands aid.
Most likely would depend on who invaded, your buddies in Downing Street had nothing to worry about, right.

In history, tho in general keeping out of European affairs until the Brits dragged yous into it, no US Government ever pushed for Irish self determination.

Meaning what. The US would run to Irelands aid.
Fuckin'-A right.
Most likely would depend on who invaded....
The ONLY exception being England, and in the remote case of that ever happening, they'd have some serious explaining to do.
In history, tho in general keeping out of European affairs until the Brits dragged yous into it, no US Government ever pushed for Irish self determination.
You were too busy blowing people up. It just didn't seem prudent.

Fuckin'-A right. OK I'll sleep better tonite.

The ONLY exception being England, and in the remote case of that ever happening, they'd have some serious explaining to do. Oddly enough, in this day and age, I think there would be such a political storm in America, it simply wouldn't happen.

You were too busy blowing people up. It just didn't seem prudent.
You do mean 'THEY' dont ya.

OK I'll sleep better tonite.
Good. Always remember, Paul - we're watching you sleep through the scope of infrared, laser-guided munitions. We won't let anyone hurt you. If they do, then I want you to know they won't make it out alive. Of course, neither will you, but rest assured, we'll get 'em.... ;)
Oddly enough, in this day and age, I think there would be such a political storm in America, it simply wouldn't happen.
You're damn skippy it wouldn't.
You do mean 'THEY' dont ya.
Well, the Irish people involved, yes.

Yes, this little spec on the edge of Europe, which really has no say on the international stage, has influence thru a tragedy of history, the Irish American.
And the Shannon stop over of course, that being are little jesture of support to the White House.

Color me surprised you didn't mention my sarcasm... :eek: :D

Im playing nice today-stop it.