http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/05/georgia.usaid/index.html

Dick Cheney offered Ukraine's support from the United States in their bid to join NATO. When we supported Georgians chance to our putting the missile shield in Georgia Russia fought a war recently. What will Russia's response to this procative? My guess it will be a shut down on natural gas as winter starts this winter. I also whether we are going to move our missile defense forward to Ukraine.

Wow, these White House boys are working fast. In one tour of Europe the Bush Administration has managed to cuddle up to Georgia and now Ukraine.
Maybe they want the new cold war up and running before being thrown out of office.

Ukraine and Russia have an agreement that the Russian Black Sea Fleet may remain at its base in Crimea until 2017.

Ukraine itself, has declared it will hold a referendum on NATO application.

Yet another example of the Bush Administration ring fencing Russia.

Are you fucking kidding me? Does our administration hate our people so much that they want Cold War 2.0?

Are you fucking kidding me? Does our administration hate our people so much that they want Cold War 2.0?

It appears the answer to that is YES.

they are supposed to support democracy where it grows. Letting some punk (Putin) bully us into not doing that will send the wrong message. If 2 free countries want to join NATO but may be a bit scared of the big bully we have to stand up for them.

I think we stand up for too many of these little guys. You can't be that nieve to think that the only reason Washington cares is so that the poor people in these countries are free.

Ukraine is a democratic nation, it and the other Bloc states are cuddleing up to the US, simply because they want the US to make sure Russia never attacks again.

Meanwhile, Bush is ring fencing Russia with missile batteries, a new Iron Curtin is coming down across Europe,
this time it says 'Made in USA' on the corner.

Well say what you will, but we do not base our actions on what other countires might do in response. We will not stop supporting new democracys because russia may get mad. sorry. Once you start backing down to these dictators tehy think the can do whatever they want. If France would have just stood up to Hitler in the beginning the little corpral would have folded in a hurry.

Well say what you will, but we do not base our actions on what other countires might do in response. We will not stop supporting new democracys because russia may get mad. sorry. Once you start backing down to these dictators tehy think the can do whatever they want. If France would have just stood up to Hitler in the beginning the little corpral would have folded in a hurry.

Nothing to do with 'not supporting countries because Russia might get mad'.
More to do with Bush taking advantage of small ex Bloc nations who feel vulnerable, vulnerable against what,
I dont know.

If these nations wish to integrate into Europe, they should be allowed into the EU, not NATO.

Just the same old balls of playing soldier yet again.

Nothing to do with 'not supporting countries because Russia might get mad'.
More to do with Bush taking advantage of small ex Bloc nations who feel vulnerable, vulnerable against what,
I dont know.
That's your problem right there. You think we're terrorists and Russia's friendly to their strategically valuable bloc nations. IOW, you're horribly confused, and moreover, the first cold war taught you nothing.

On that note, do you have a problem with democracy, or something?

That's your problem right there. You think we're terrorists and Russia's friendly to their strategically valuable bloc nations. IOW, you're horribly confused, and moreover, the first cold war taught you nothing.

On that note, do you have a problem with democracy, or something?

Ah, theres your problem right there, your full of it.
Oh yes, the cold war taught me something, war is wrong, especially when two ego's clash.

Any excuse to arm or deploy troops both sides go for it. It really shows that America and Russia
are the ones who who learnt nothing

Usually countries look to thier continued survival before joining an economic group. Why would you go to the EU before NATO? WTF will the EU do for you if Russia rolls taks across your border? Sign a document denouncing it? Face it, those countries know what postition they are in and plain old western european ideas and politics do not work in their situation.

Usually countries look to thier continued survival before joining an economic group. Why would you go to the EU before NATO? WTF will the EU do for you if Russia rolls taks across your border? Sign a document denouncing it? Face it, those countries know what postition they are in and plain old western european ideas and politics do not work in their situation.

Its time guys like yourself started looking forward instead of looking back.
You ask, what would I do if the Ruskies came here, same thing as when the Brits were here, tho putting that aside, the EU needs Russia, tho Russia needs the EU just as much, for trade and investment.

It was EU pressure which slowly shifted the Russians from their involvement in Georgia, now they are beginning to withdraw to pre Georgian attack lines, no need for anyone else to be killed.

Now as for NATO, that organisation needs Russia, having the old enemy not engaging in cold war games with
the west, puts a damp squid on western governments military spending budgets, thats why Bush was/is so
enthusiastic about military involvement in the Muslim World.

WTF does the muslim world have to do with us and Russia, Georgia and Poland?

What would you have us tell Eastern European countries that want to join NATO? "Sorry, Russia doesnt want you too and we dont want to upset them?"

WTF does the muslim world have to do with us and Russia, Georgia and Poland? [QUOTE]
Militarism.

[QUOTE=Travh20]What would you have us tell Eastern European countries that want to join NATO? "Sorry, Russia doesnt want you too and we dont want to upset them?"
Like I said before, if the Ruskies are such a threat, as NATO thinks, build a buffer zone of neutral states
from the Balkans to the Black Sea.

Its NATO who is provocative here, not Russia.

You mean build a buffer zone by refusing free nations entry into something they want to join based on what russia wants?

That's what I'm gathering here, too, Trav. It's weird how wrong-minded certain westerners can be, eh? I mean, it's almost as if they dislike democracies....

It is like, he wants to deny them entry into NATO so he can feel safe. How would he like it if someone used his country as a buffer zone?

I don't think he'd care one way or the other. He worries about his safety, and in his opinion, the US is the only country threatening it. I mean, Russia controls the natural gas supply throughout Europe, but if they decide to shut the tap off (despite making money, of course, for political reasons, specifically to freeze innocent people), he'd blame us simply because we opted to support democracy and defend the abused.

It's rather sad, actually.

Now gentlemen, hold on there.
Im against these military clubs that are ran by Washington glory boys, full stop.

There is no justification for them, lets be honest here, America doesnt need allies for any military matter, so whats the point.

With the current Administrations attitudes, America and a select few hanger on'ers, taking an agenda that frankly, the rest of the world disapproves of, your simply circling your wagons, and either with us or against us.

Small nations like mine, are better not getting involved in the arms race.
Alas, Russia wont sit back and see itself being ring fenced by Bush, can I blame them, no.

Tho they are just as aggressive as NATO, so, you deserve each other.

We dont need them but you and other small democracies do. That is kind of the whole point Paul. So little countries that want freedom and independence can do so with a feeling of security. So they dont feel threatened by people like Putin.

We dont need them but you and other small democracies do. That is kind of the whole point Paul. So little countries that want freedom and independence can do so with a feeling of security. So they dont feel threatened by people like Putin.


Well Trav, from personal experience, nobody ever came to my defence, but anyway.
Do you honestly think Russia is a serious threat to east European nations ?

And what price do these countries pay for this privilege, Iraq, Afghanistan, secret CIA internment camps.
Dont forget either, Russia aside, the biggest armed forces in Europe are, Ukrainian.

Well Trav, from personal experience, nobody ever came to my defence, but anyway.
Do you honestly think Russia is a serious threat to east European nations ?.

If there is one thing we have learned in the 20th century and even the beginning of this century is that you do not wait for a country to be come a serious threat before you start to deal with them. I am aware Europeans prefer to talk until the gun is at their head, but we dont do it like that.

And what price do these countries pay for this privilege, Iraq, Afghanistan, secret CIA internment camps.
Dont forget either, Russia aside, the biggest armed forces in Europe are, Ukrainian.

I am not sure what the price to be in NATO is. At the very least you have to commit to the common defense of other members.

Against who ?

OK Paul, you are right. Why should we even have military any more, there are no threats left :rolleyes:

OK Paul, you are right. Why should we even have military any more, there are no threats left :rolleyes:Very good Trav, a nice piece of dismissal there.

Threats mostly from Muslim extremists, right. 50 years of one sided Foreign Policy which saw Israel being
armed and rearmed, Arab Royal Families being prompted up, neither enquiring nor caring about the death of democracy in the entire mid east region, now, have small nations whom feel vulnerable join the Bush crusade,
make it look like an international effort, cannon fodder, Id say.

Paul, your whole point in this thread is we should deny certain countries, who are free and democratic, entry into NATO so as to appease Putin. How can you deny that?
Do you think if they wanted to restart the Warsaw Pact with Russia Putin would say no becuase it may offend us? Doubtful.

Paul, your whole point in this thread is we should deny certain countries, who are free and democratic, entry into NATO so as to appease Putin. How can you deny that?
Do you think if they wanted to restart the Warsaw Pact with Russia Putin would say no becuase it may offend us? Doubtful.
M whole point Trav is to try and avert another 'cold war'.
We all know Bush is deploying a 'missile shield' across Europe, about 1000 miles east of the original 'Iron Curtin'. For what purpose, I really dont know.

As a result of this, the Kremlin is pumping up nationalist feeling in the motherland, and Putin acting the hardman is boosting his ratings, the whole thing is getting out of control.

Ive no love for Russia, but I dont see them as a threat either.

M whole point Trav is to try and avert another 'cold war'.
We all know Bush is deploying a 'missile shield' across Europe, about 1000 miles east of the original 'Iron Curtin'. For what purpose, I really dont know.
Then you lack the ability to think critically. To put it simply, you couldn't discern a threat from a hole in the ground, Paul.
As a result of this, the Kremlin is pumping up nationalist feeling in the motherland, and Putin acting the hardman is boosting his ratings, the whole thing is getting out of control.
So, in other words, it's business as usual for the disillusioned, saber-rattling morons running the show, otherwise known as the Russian "state" committee members and vice-premiers.
Ive no love for Russia, but I dont see them as a threat either.
Boy, it sure doesn't seem that way, and of course, you don't. The Russians can wholesale slaughter Afghanis for sport while their mafia turns England into a cesspool of crime and prostitution, but we're the real "threat" to you people, remember? :rolleyes:

If there's one thing I can bet on here, it's your steadfast opposition to ANYTHING we do. And that's not a matter of opinion on my part; it's a matter of fact.

That's what I'm gathering here, too, Trav. It's weird how wrong-minded certain westerners can be, eh? I mean, it's almost as if they dislike democracies....

"Western nations" (and when using that term it means primarily the U.S.) do not merely "dislike" democracy....

......they detest and abhor it... IF and when, as it has a tendency to do, it gets in the way of massive profits for the Corporate State in America.

The ConservaFascists here at home could not care less about so-called "democracy",.... either here OR in other countries.

The notion that they --the political leadership here in this country-- somehow hold democracy "sacred" is such a preposterous bullshit claim (and the opposite has been demonstrated so many times over the past 60 years) that virtually everyone on the planet sees through it. Well, everyone except the ConservaZombies in America, evidently.

How many times does the political leadership in this country have to support some two-bit despotic dictator (and prop him up with monetary and military aid so that American Corporations operating in his country can prey on that country and its people and strip it of its resources) before the clueless American Public figures out how the scam is being worked?!?!?!?

Then you lack the ability to think critically. To put it simply, you couldn't discern a threat from a hole in the ground, Paul.
I can think critically, dont you worry about that.
Boy, it sure doesn't seem that way, and of course, you don't. The Russians can wholesale slaughter Afghanis for sport while their mafia turns England into a cesspool of crime and prostitution, but we're the real "threat" to you people, remember?
I may be wrong, but I think more people have died in Iraq than during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan,
tho the Iraqi dead dont worry, they died for freedom and liberty, right.

The Russian Mafia are more prevalent on mainland Europe than England.

If there's one thing I can bet on here, it's your steadfast opposition to ANYTHING we do. And that's not a matter of opinion on my part; it's a matter of fact.

Your fact ya mean, at this present time in history the US is the most aggressive nation, its aggression should be condemned by all right thinking people.

How many times does the political leadership in this country have to support some two-bit despotic dictator (and prop him up with monetary and military aid so that American Corporations operating in his country can prey on that country and its people and strip it of its resources) before the clueless American Public figures out how the scam is being worked?!?!?!?
What's it gonna take for you to understand that we didn't always get to "pick and choose" which thugs got to run "their" countries? More often than not, it boiled down to a matter of financial and political expedience. Take, for example, when we started paying for oil. We approached their "tribal" leaders, who were far from savory, but that wasn't our problem, nor was it our concern. We started paying 'em, and the rest is history, but you're a master of historical revisionism, who lacks the inclination for strategic or practical thought, so here we are....telling you how things work in the real world. Yet again.

You know, you armchair quarterbacks would be hilarious if you weren't so fucking sad in the first place.

I can think critically, dont you worry about that.

I may be wrong, but I think more people have died in Iraq than during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan,
tho the Iraqi dead dont worry, they died for freedom and liberty, right.
Up yours, Paul. We didn't stack those people in piles only to run over their bodies with our tanks, and we certainly didn't take their children and slit their throats in front of their parents LIKE THE SOVIETS DID DURING THE AFGHAN WAR, so you can take your righteous indignation and shove it up your sanctimonious ass. How dare you imply that we're anything like the Russians, you fucking jerk off.

I’m sick and tired of hearing you denigrate my country and our business practices (which have pretty much single-handedly lifted your shithole nation out of third-world status), when you people were BLOWING each other up less than 25 years ago like a bunch of Middle Eastern monkeys. You pompous Europeans bear no responsibility for ANYTHING, yet you feel it necessary to tacitly imply just how eeeevil we are, and for what? So your asshole comedians can make fun of us for being fat AND stupid? Fuck you all - you're pussies - the lot of ya.

Up yours, Paul. We didn't stack those people in piles only to run over their bodies with our tanks, and we certainly didn't take their children and slit their throats in front of their parents LIKE THE SOVIETS DID DURING THE AFGHAN WAR, so you can take your righteous indignation and shove it up your sanctimonious ass. How dare you imply that we're anything like the Russians, you fucking jerk off.

I’m sick and tired of hearing you denigrate my country and our business practices (which have pretty much single-handedly lifted your shithole nation out of third-world status), when you people were BLOWING each other up less than 25 years ago like a bunch of Middle Eastern monkeys. You pompous Europeans bear no responsibility for ANYTHING, yet you feel it necessary to tacitly imply just how eeeevil we are, and for what? So your asshole comedians can make fun of us for being fat AND stupid? Fuck you all - you're pussies - the lot of ya.

Does this mean you dont agree with me then ?

Up yours, Paul. We didn't stack those people in piles only to run over their bodies with our tanks, and we certainly didn't take their children and slit their throats in front of their parents LIKE THE SOVIETS DID DURING THE AFGHAN WAR, so you can take your righteous indignation and shove it up your sanctimonious ass. How dare you imply that we're anything like the Russians, you fucking jerk off.

I’m sick and tired of hearing you denigrate my country and our business practices (which have pretty much single-handedly lifted your shithole nation out of third-world status), when you people were BLOWING each other up less than 25 years ago like a bunch of Middle Eastern monkeys. You pompous Europeans bear no responsibility for ANYTHING, yet you feel it necessary to tacitly imply just how eeeevil we are, and for what? So your asshole comedians can make fun of us for being fat AND stupid? Fuck you all - you're pussies - the lot of ya.

On reflection, I will respond to this post, fuck if Im gonna let you slabber to me like that.
How dare I imply your nothing like the Russians, tell me mac, which Army currently occupies Afghanistan ?

This shithole third world nation did indeed do very well out of American companies investing in it, not as well as those companies, but I can see your point indeed.

25 years ago, people were blowing each other up, yes indeed, and much much worse, one side wanted to free itself of the British shackles, the other wanted to remain British, cant for the life of me remember the White House stepping in to free this small nation, but then again, it was your buddies on the other side, right.

I hate to tell ya mac, Americans are in general, heavier than most, lifestyle I guess, as for being stupid,
only some of yous, know what I mean, youve proved that.

Good, it's nice to see that you have a set of balls, after all. I mean, if I really wanted you to back down, then all I'd have to do is get a gun, right? Europeans tend to run like crazy when they see one, but whatever.

And yes, this most certainly means that I don't agree with you.

Good, it's nice to see that you have a set of balls, after all. I mean, if I really wanted you to back down, then all I'd have to do is get a gun, right? Europeans tend to run like crazy when they see one, but whatever.

And yes, this most certainly means that I don't agree with you.

Yeah Ive got a pair alright, thanks for asking, now.

A quick comparison:

East Europeans hate and fear the Ruskies for the exact same reasons mid eastern Muslims hate and fear America, why.

Because both Russia and America use their Armed Forces at the drop of a hat to achieve their political goals.


PS: I dont like guns, after youve had more than one being fired at you, you wont like them either, trust me.